Dr. Michael Gervais 0:00 

To be able to know how to weather, you know, difficult experiences, emotions and situations are required, and so that we can meet the demands of the moment. So I need to first invest in my inner life and my habits and practices so I can be a great teammate, so that I can, if enough of those do that in the kind of the same setting, we end up being a great team.

David Novak 0:22 

Most people think confidence and resilience are just part of your personality, but the truth is, they're skills you can train. And today, you'll see how welcome to how leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader that you can be. Today, I'm talking with Dr Michael Gervais, one of the most respected performance psychologists in the world. He's worked with Super Bowl champions, Olympic gold medalist and top Fortune 500 CEOs at his company, finding mastery. He helped people train their minds to perform under pressure, to stay focused, to build confidence and to live with purpose. Basically, he coaches the best people in the world to get even better, and in this conversation, he shares the same tools and ideas with you so that you can gain an edge in your own personal performance, if you need a confidence boost, if you want to build a stronger team, or if you just know you're capable of more, but you're not sure how to get there. This episode is a treasure trove of insights. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Dr, Michael Gervais,

I think this will be a really fun podcast for everybody, because what I want to do is is basically help you lead a coaching session with business leaders so they they can get your perspective on on how you would approach certain things as as as you think about how you lead at work and how you take people with you. So I think it'll be a lot of fun as we as we explore this. But I want to kind of start before we get into that. I always like to take people back a little bit. Michael, and what's the story from from your childhood that really shaped the kind of leader you are today? I

Dr. Michael Gervais 2:15 

love these types of questions. I feel like there's okay. So this is as this as a trained psychologist, I could go to a lot of places here. Let's narrow the playing field down a little bit. I grew up early days on a farm in Virginia, and it was not a fancy farm. This was a farm where, when, you know, got cold outside during the winter, we had to figure out how to get water from our well, you know, like this. Was a bit Spartan. My parents were young when they got married, young when they had me, this is the 70s. They wanted to drop out. They wanted a better life than that. They were living in the cities, and so they found a dirt road. Followed it for a long time, and there was no street lights. When that started to kind of shift and change, and there wasn't many houses around, they found something they could almost afford, and they said, We're going to build a family here. I got my roots learning from Mother Nature. So my parents were very laissez faire. Okay, so what that means is, like natural consequences were my teacher, and, of course, they created some boundaries. But, you know, like parenting harshly, or give me, let me fast forward, like, just to make the point here is that I didn't take my essay T I didn't take my PSAT. I went surfing. When we finally moved to California, I went surfing because my parenting style was like, you'll figure it out, kid. So now back to the farm, when I'm, you know, eight years old, and I the distinct moment that I realized, oh boy, if I don't come home, because I was playing in the backyard, in the in our creek, with the kind of the Blue Hill grasses and amazing landscape is when it got dark and I didn't get home, it got really scary out there. Okay, so, so I have a distinct memory. Pay attention to Mother Nature. You've got to figure some stuff out in your own life. And this is really going to be fun, but it could be really scary if you, if you, you know, don't tune to nature. So that was an early life framing for me. Yeah,

David Novak 4:25 

my, my, my mother grew up on a farm, so I spent a little time out on farms. And it's, it's a, it's, it's a really great, great environment, you know? And you know, you said your parents basically let you kind of find your way, and you have a very calm, Zen like behavior to certain extent. And from my research, I understand when you're a kid, you got a lot of fist fights. I mean, where that has you pull that?

Dr. Michael Gervais 4:54 

Okay, yes, I was a young, naive, tuned. Nature kid, and then my dad said, All right, family, we're going to the West Coast. I got a job, and the job is pulling me, you know, there's a great opportunity. And so I went from, you know, hickville to suburbia, and I'm now in fourth grade, and I distinctly remember I didn't fit in. Everybody was a little different than me. I spoke differently. I thought differently. I didn't have the right clothes, the right bike, I didn't have anything that was, you know, of interest to the other kids. And I just remember, like there was this. It was in fifth grade. The kid says to me, choose you out. So what does that mean? Choose you out after school. I was like, I don't know what that means. And it meant, like, we're going to fight after school. And so I figured it out. And I was like, okay, so I showed up. I didn't know what to do. He wasn't there, so I went home and told my parents about it. And my grandmother is Irish and Italian. Identify with my Italian roots. My dad has a bunch of Irish roots, and so they sat me down and taught me how to fight. And so like how to street fight, and it paid dividends. So the next day, I got in a fight, my first fight, and the to just tell you how wild the kind of my family was, I'm in the middle of a fight, and I see my mom, my dad and my grandmother in the car watching, just to make sure it didn't get out of control. But they were very happy that, you know, I was going to defend myself. I mean, that would never fly now, like I would never do that with my son. I was terrified and but I was not a violent I'm not violent. I don't like violence, but that was every year, multiple times a year, all the way until I was 30. This is tragic. Now this gets really sad. So I didn't know I was I had all this anxiety underneath the surface, so I didn't know what to do with the anxiety. So I it came out through aggression, and I met my wife in high school, and we fell in love at a very young age, and I was the age of 30, and I came home from a pickup basketball game and she said, I What are you doing with your life? You know? And so she says, I got to tell you one time, I thought it was cool that you know how to defend yourself and me or somebody else, like I really felt safe, and I liked that. But now I got to tell you I'm really repulsed by it, and I thought I have a crisis here, you know, I don't know what to do with my emotions, and I made a decision from that point forward that violence is not part of my way, and I need to figure it out. And so I went and worked on my anxiety, and it led me to a whole set of practices that materially have changed my life. And now I think about like how freeing it feels to be at home with myself like wherever I am, in whatever room I'm in or in heaven that I'm part of like I have a general sense, and of course, I'm not perfect with anything, but I have a general sense of how to feel at home. And I think that that is other people might say peaceful or whatever, but I'm not always peaceful inside myself, but I do feel at home with myself so it I wouldn't recommend the path I don't want my son to ever experience that you know in their life, but I, you know, I'm glad you bring this up, David, because I do think that there is a rich value in knowing How to really stand in front of another human and and sometimes have to fight for what you believe is right. And I don't mean violence, you know, but when you and another person in a public space, meaning other kids or adults or whatever, are watching, who's, who's gonna, you know, who's gonna back down. And if the principle is pure and honest and real, like we got to fight for some stuff, especially right now, in this climate that is radically confused, like we are polarized. We're confused. We're we're swinging from pendulum to pendulum, and we're not finding the interest and tolerance to listen to each other and then, like, hold each other with high regard, to fight for a better way for both of us, as opposed to just defend one's own point of view.

David Novak 9:31 

So the real driver of your fighting was this anxiety you have. And you know, all leaders, I think, deal with anxiety. And you said you went to school on on how to cope with your anxiety. What would be the single biggest thing you learned on, on how to how to deal with anxiety?

Dr. Michael Gervais 9:53 

I'd like to answer that in two ways. I think what most people would like. To talk about, or like, some skills they could practice so they could work a little bit better with their anxiety. And I will. I'm super happy to talk about a handful of practices and skills that that were material for me. But the biggest one to answer your question is I had to decouple the performative part of me. I had to decouple what I I'm sorry, what I do, with who I am. And I was so intertwined and, like enmeshed in my sense of identity and sense of self that I am what I do. And it's evidenced by simple little language, like, you know, oh, I'm a athlete, or I'm a executive, or I am a parent, I am a fill in the blank. And so when the thing that you do is the defining characteristic of how you describe yourself, it gets really, really, really, really tricky, because your entire identity is always at stake when you are expected to perform or you are expected to be a certain way relative to the title that you gave yourself or that you hold, and that it's called performance based identity. I didn't realize this. This is a real thing, especially in Western culture, that is one of the greatest constrictors of people getting free of people living what, what we would determine is a quote, unquote, great life. Is that to move from a performance based identity to a purpose based identity that travel from performance to purpose is one of the great unlocks that I've seen across world class athletes and executives and humans in every walk of life, like when you wrestle down one of the big questions in your life, why am I here? What am I doing here? You know, like, What is my purpose? We can exhale a little bit more when we get a little bit more clarity on what how do

David Novak 12:02 

you I think you're getting a really good point here, because people have purpose. It takes them to a higher level, gives them a noble cause, you know, how do you get to that purpose? You know, people struggle that. You know, people these little pat phrases, you know, do what you love, etc, etc. You know, all that sounds great, you know, and a lot of that does help you drive towards what your purpose might be. But you know, what have you found to be really a key to unlocking the purpose that you would have in your life?

Dr. Michael Gervais 12:32 

What I've done in trying to figure that very question out is I studied the religions, I studied the philosophical positions, and I studied like cultural things, like ikigai and whatnot. And what I found is some of the more modern, overlapping concepts are, first we work from what are your core values like, what are the most important values that matter to you? And you just write those words down. And I'm pretty simple. I can hold in my memory at least three, maybe five. Okay, so, but make sift them down to the ones that really matter to you. And then you express how you express those values, for example. And I'm going to ladder this up to something that's that's going to help with purpose. It starts with values. Then it goes to first principles. The example of a first principle is, let's say my value is honesty. The way I use honesty could be honesty at all costs. It could be brutal honesty, or it could be honesty with compassion. It could be honesty when a person's available to it. So there's a way that I take the value and make it so for me, that's called the first principle. And then what rests on the values and the first principles is, eventually you get to clarity of a personal philosophy. Okay, so a personal philosophy is this idea about, like, what are, what are the most important principles that guide my thoughts, words and actions, and it's a sentence or two that is my personal philosophy. It's unique to you, and you can borrow it from Gandhi, Buddha, Jesus, you know, Confucius. You could borrow those. They all have values and first principles and personal philosophies about life. They they've done that for themselves. Now, if you want to feel like, No, I want my own cool you know, you will be influenced by a lot of sources, and I just don't want to again escape from the reality of how important these radical teachings have been for, you know, 9 billion people on our planet, and then what comes up from personal philosophy is a compelling vision that you hold for yourself. What is a what is in the most crystallized way? How can you use your imagination to see a compelling future? So that's your vision. Let me say it again. Values to first principles. First Principles to personal philosophy. Personal philosophy to vision. And then once you have those. Stacked together, it's the sum of those that inform what your purpose is, and so. So now purpose rests on three legs. The first is nobody can give you your purpose. It has to matter to you. So it has first leg personal meaning it matters to you second leg is that it has to be bigger than you. Okay, it doesn't need to be, you know, saving the water issue across the planet. Like, as big as it gets, it does not need to be saving children in said country, you know, it can be, it just has to be bigger than you. Like, being a great mom or dad for my family, you know, but it's just bigger than you. And the third leg of the stool, David, is that you can't solve it today. There's a, there's a, there's a horizon to it, you know, there's a, it's out in front of you.

David Novak 15:53 

Yeah? Well, you know, I think it's a critical thing. And, you know, I think when your your life is filled with the noble cause, you know, I think it takes you to takes you to a whole different plane in terms of how you will perform, and you've become this renowned performance psychologist. You know, what took you to that path?

Dr. Michael Gervais 16:13 

I'll go back to the pain as an origin story for most of us, is that, you know, I was super unsettled and anxious, as we described, but I needed this science to show up in my life. I was a young competitor, good little surfer. You know, growing up on the West Coast, that was my sport of choice. And it makes sense, doesn't it, I didn't like adults yelling at me. I liked Mother Nature teaching me. So surfing was this, you know, great kind of expression playground for me. And there's two types of surfing, David, there's one part of surfing is called core surfing, and the other type of surfing is competitive surfing, and it's like oil and water. The two do not mix. Core surfing is put yourself in a heavy position, put yourself in the most critical part of a heavy wave. And when you survive that, you don't come out of that experience. Asking anyone, did you see it? Did anyone get a picture? You know, look that that was amazing. Let me tell you about it. That was all shunned. So the mandate in core surfing was put yourself in the situation that is as heavy and critical as you can tolerate. Don't risk your life in stupid ways, but put yourself in those situations to earn the right to know, to earn the knowing of what it takes, of what you need to build, of what it feels like, and that is the reward. Do not look around to see if anyone saw you. And it was awesome. I fell so at home with that culture. But I also wanted to compete now in the competition, you know, I was the weird kettle here. I wanted to go test myself against other people that were really skilled. Now, in competitive surfing, you've got people on the beach that are judging, critiquing, jeering, celebrating. So there's this whole other world out there. I was a good little surfer, not great, but in competition moments, David, I was a mess. So it's this beautiful condition out I'm 15 years old, you know, literally wet behind my ears. It's perfect conditions out in the Pacific Ocean, 730 in the morning. There's only three people out with these beautiful conditions, because that's how many people are are in the heat. And there was a competitor that paddled by me, and he says, Gervais, and he was about four or five years older than me. He says, Gervais, I surf with you almost every day. He says, I just got to tell you, you got to stop worrying about all the things that could go wrong. You're a mess out here. And I thought to myself, How does he know? Like that's exactly what's happening? He paddled off. He beat me in that, in the competition, you know, like he didn't leave me in a better way. And instantly I thought, Now, this is a 15 year old mind. My physical body didn't change from yesterday. My technical skills didn't change from yesterday. The only thing that changed was how I'm thinking, what is that? So this is like 19, early 1980s what is that? What is this thing on the mind? And I knew that I couldn't say anything about it, because you remember at that time, David, if you talk about the mind, you're kind of weak, you're you're a weirdo, you're you got something wrong with you, like my dad wasn't having any of that, and so I didn't know what to do. So I privately, quietly, tried to figure it out. And then I found this thing called the science of excellence, the psychology of excellence. It's this small little field that was just getting going. And I thought that these are my people. So I took it as far as I could go, as far as I possibly could.

David Novak 20:00 

Go. So when you're coming up in a field like that, and now you're acknowledged as being at the top, or one of the top, and if

Dr. Michael Gervais 20:08 

they only knew how much I really don't know,

David Novak 20:12 

yeah, well, that may be part of it, okay, but you know you, how did you, how did you break through, you know, to get that notoriety, what was the thing that you think you did as a leader that separated you, maybe, from

Dr. Michael Gervais 20:26 

the pack? I don't think this is a complicated answer. Is that, like I really enjoyed trying to figure out how the science could be applied. So I read a lot, I studied a lot. I was in the dark part of the so that the research library when I was at my master's program is just one example. By the way, I should mention I didn't get into college right out of high school, so I went a different path. I went to junior college, and I feel very fortunate that I had some early mentors that were professors that held me to a standard. They saw this young, kind of lost, but switched on kid, you know, and they said, they said, listen, we'd love to show you what we're into. And it was a theologian, a psychologist and a philosopher, sounds like a bad joke, right? And they said, Hey, kid, you know, like there's something in you. And and do not come into this. Do not come into our classrooms half cocked. You know, they really held me to a standard, and I loved it. I just felt seen and so, so then it inspired me to, like, really bring my best when I walked into a classroom setting. And so now I'm in my graduate program. No one in my family finished high school or finished college, or even started college, I should say so. I'm way past where my parents have been in this academic world, and I'm in the back of the the library. In the metal part, there's barely any lights, you know, there's metal racks looking for all the journals around the science and psychology of excellence, I could find sitting by myself in one of those little stools that, you know, are really uncomfortable, and I just remember, like, shit, what am I doing? You know, like, and so it was partly that, and it was partly my wife gave me this really important bit of insight, and she said, you know, Mike, just do good work and I think we'll be okay. Rent at that time for me was $700 a month, and I could barely afford it. And so it was like, just do good work and I think we're going to be okay. So I just wanted to do really good work in this thing that I found to be complicated and beautiful, psychology of excellence. And it was, I didn't have a grand plan. I never wanted to work with world class athletes myself. I did want to work with people that were ambitious, you know, but ambitious for what aim to be their best, not the best, but to be their best. David, I don't know what it was like for you in your late 20s, early 30s, but I was a mess. And I don't wish that type of anxiety, obsessiveness, criticalness, on on anybody, but I do recognize it in people that are unsettled in their current way of being and want to be better. And it's a it's a double edged dangerous sword, you know, like that unsettledness, and if you can figure out how to get really good at something and be at home with yourself. So it's the balance between exceptional doing and exceptional being. It is how the best in the world that go one step beyond high performance and kind of start swimming in the pool of mastery. It's a smaller pool, but those that are in that pool, they're they're working on figuring out the harmony between exceptional doing and exceptional being, and those are the I didn't have the language for it when I was younger, but that was what I was most interested in.

Koula Callahan 24:08 

Hey everyone, it's Kula from how leaders lead. And if you've watched our podcast for any number of episodes, you probably know that a common theme from all of the great leaders we interview is that they are active learners. They have this commitment to continuing to learn and grow so that they don't stay stagnant, and so that they continue to see success in their leadership and in their life. This theme of active learning is so important, and it's what David's latest book, how leaders learn is all about. It's all about helping you develop that skill of active learning so that you too can continue to see success in your leadership and in your life. The book is really entertaining. It pulls stories from some of our greatest podcast guests and pairs those stories with insights that you can incorporate into your leadership and into your life right away. Grab how leaders learn on Amazon or wherever books are sold. And I think you're really going to love it. You feel David's prayer. Personality through the pages and through his storytelling, and it's a really powerful way to level up your leadership.

David Novak 25:05 

You found your company, and you have this podcast called Finding mastery. You know, you're good with words. Why mastery? Yeah,

Dr. Michael Gervais 25:15 

it's it's a little bit warmer. You know, high performance feels too metallic for me, and on paper, like someone looks me up and they're like, oh, high performance psychologist, it just feels a little too metallic and outcome driven. And so mastery has a different contour to it. There's a different feel. It's a different language, if you will, and it is more honest, I think, in in the pursuit to really unlock what you're capable of, where high performance, it's cool. I'm down with it. You know, performance does matter, but it's if it's one step down and it's a bit more shiny, metallic and sharp edged, where mastery has it's a more honest language than high performance. What's

David Novak 26:04 

your take? Michael, on, on, on how to build a mastery team. That's, that's basically what you've done, you know? And let's use your team that you build as an example.

Dr. Michael Gervais 26:15 

Yeah, you know, you have a lot to say here. David, so I'll start, and you finish. How's that? Okay? So I want

David Novak 26:22 

to hear what I have to say. Oh, I

Dr. Michael Gervais 26:25 

don't think that's the case. Okay? I am fatigued by thinking about teams. And so the way I think about it is, how can we be great teammates? And so the artifact of being great teammates to each other is that we end up being part of something that is more bonded and connect, connected it. Call it a team, but it's the artifact. So inputs to outputs, you know? I'll make it as I like things that are simple for me, you know. So what are the inputs? If the output is a team, I need to understand the inputs and the inputs that are 100% under my control so that I can actually contribute in a meaningful way to this desired output. And a team is not the end output. It's a team in service of something else. So it's like input to output to some other output. I'm responsible for being a good teammate to you, David, and if I am anxious, irritated, agitated, if I'm under slept, if I'm under recovered, if I'm overworked, if I can't figure out how to use my words, if I can't figure out how to use my thoughts and my emotions to be in service of something beautiful and ambitious that I'm trying to work towards, then I am an I am no good for you. And so I think most of us feel a little bit underwater in modern times. I think most of us are under recovered. I don't think the stress is actually too much. It's a function of not being exceptional with stress, and being exceptional at recovering as intelligently as you can so that you can meet the demands, the exciting demands that are coming down your down the path for tomorrow. I want to remind you and I that the Dark Ages were way harder than today's times. Those are hard, hard times right now. I'm not minimizing the challenge, the challenges of today. I think they're legit, but most it's like the tide has gone out. David and we got we realized that we were swimming naked for a long time, so the recovery strategies to be able to know how to weather, you know, difficult experiences, emotions and situations are required, and so that we can meet the demands at the moment. So I need to first invest in my inner life and my habits and practices so I can be a great teammate, so that I can, if enough of those do that in the kind of the same setting, we end up being a great team. So that's how I think about when it

David Novak 29:08 

comes to teams. You know, it seems today, you know, the human characteristics that no computer can ever take the place of is that you want teammates that are empathetic. You want teammates that are collaborative. You know? How do you think about those two concepts and how important do you think they are for leaders today?

Dr. Michael Gervais 29:31 

Let's start with collaboration and empathy is the big one. So let me start with what I think is a little bit smaller in order, so collaborating towards what so the leader needs to have a very clear vision of a compelling future that I see myself in and you see yourself in, and we both recognize we can't do it without each other. So I need to be great for that thing to ambitiously take place. And. And I need to be great teammate for you. So the collaboration is like a requirement that we understand and embrace, that we need each other. And I'm not competing with you. I am actually competing within myself to be my very best so that I can be a great teammate. That's what collaboration means. So empathy is more of a first mover in this idea of collaboration. So collaboration, again, doesn't happen without clarity of a vision, clarity of the reason why we're going after that vision. So that's both vision and purpose in that language, and then empathy is like to be a great teammate. I've got to, at some level, really understand, like, what's it like to be David? What's date? What's happening for David? You know, what is he going through? What are the things that he's struggling with, and what are the things that he's excited about? So empathy is, like, I can tune to your emotional experience, but empathy is not enough. Empathy is good. It's foundational. And you're right. We don't get it from technology. We actually get it from our moms. So moms are one of the greatest teachers of empathy early on. But there's no excuse, like, like, you got to figure this thing out if you want to be connected to the emotional part of life in the emotional part of other humans. So empathy and then compassion rests on empathy. So compassion is I have a sense of what it's like to be you David, and then I'm going to take action in ways that I can help. So empathy to compassion, to collaborate, to be a great teammate in service of this compelling future that has a deeper why underneath of it. You got me, I'm in David. I'm totally in on those types of teams, and I've done a bunch of work with Microsoft, which I don't know if you know Satya Nadella personally or not. I think he's one of our most significant leaders, CEOs and of our time, he is grounded in empathy. He is rooted in compassion. He is principle based to go from a know it all culture to a learn it all culture, so that we can be in service of a higher purpose. And then what they and in some way, I've, I'll be super humble, have contributed to their culture and contributed to this definition what makes a great leader. According to Microsoft, it's great leaders generate clarity, they generate energy, and they generate results. So clarity of what the vision energy, they bring an energy into environment. Let's go. Let's get after. There's a, there's a there's a, you know, just a, like, a symbiotic thing that takes place when somebody's got that passion and they deliver against it.

David Novak 32:57 

And you've, you've worked with gold medalists, you've worked with, you know, perhaps the top CEO of our time, Satya, who's done a phenomenal job at Microsoft. You know, a lot of times along the way, leaders stall. You know, they just kind of stall and they're not improving. You know, how do you get people out of that rut? What kind of coaching. Do you give

Dr. Michael Gervais 33:21 

that's cool statement or cool premise? It just open it the aperture a little bit wider. It's like that's not just for leaders, it's for all of us. But there is how to help. We learned this early on in high performing environments, is that at the moment of something going sideways, something going that's not according to plan, if you haven't built relationships ahead of time, you're a very little service to the other people. So it's it's well in advance to that, let's call it stall or plateau, or something that's taking place, or maybe it's a fatigue or a burnout, or, you know, like whatever it is, it's the relationship that is built over time in advance that carries through those challenging experiences. I don't have a silver bullet or a magic bullet, of course, but Holding, holding that person in with an unconditional positive regard is kind of a first principle that really is important, really wanting to understand their internal solutions. I do not hold your solutions for you, David, they're already in there. So my role, if we're working together, is to have an unconditional positive regard, understand what it's like to be you and ask as many questions as you'll tolerate. For me to hold up a mirror to what solutions already lie dormant within you. You already know it. You've already. Solved really hard things in your life, if you're if you're a leader at this level. Now you likely, you know, I've been some through some real fires in your life, so I'm just going to help pull it forward to my best ability.

David Novak 35:13 

You know, I've heard you say that that confidence is, is simply a math equation explain.

Dr. Michael Gervais 35:20 

Confidence is a cornerstone for great performance. And confidence begins with this simple little calculus. And it's this thing that's always right underneath its surface, because confidence is state specific. It's fleeting, it changes. It's temperamental, if you will, and once you understand the mechanics of it, you can have some consistency with it. So confidence is the calculus for confidence is that I am assessing the challenge in front of me and mapping that against my perception of my internal skills. So it's this external challenges in front of me. If I think that that thing is way over my skis, and then I start to slide and think, like, Man, I don't have the skills to meet that challenge. Confidence goes down, anxiety goes up. If I look at the challenge and I go, Ooh, that's a real challenge. Now, okay, and you know what? I'm uniquely qualified. I've got a whole lot of things I'm going to bring to this dance. I don't know if it's going to go the way I hope, but I'm going to give it a great go. You with me? You with me? No, yes. Okay, it doesn't matter. I'm getting after this thing. So it's that's the calculus.

David Novak 36:33 

To have that calculus and to get the formula to work for you, you got to get your head in the right space. I mean, you know, how do you how do you get into that ideal state that you need to get to to

Dr. Michael Gervais 36:50 

perform? Yeah, so you think about an athlete for a minute 16 years leads up to whatever practice we're about to have, or whatever game we're about to have. Let's just say it's game day, and there's been a ton of work underneath the surface to be physically, technically and mentally great, the consummate professional, the true Master who's committed to their potential. They use warm ups as a way to loosen up their body, tune into like this, sharpen their skills just a little bit and to wake up their ideal competitive mindset, to wake up their ideal performance mindset, to wake up the thinking that helps create a vibe that is best for them. So the warm ups are meant to tune physically, technically and mentally. Now the bullseye for the mental bit is to know with great clarity what is your ideal performance mindset. And so we work backwards from that. I don't if I ask you, David, like, tell me a time when you were really it was amazing to be inside you like you were in your best state of mind. How would you describe that?

David Novak 38:01 

Yeah, well, I always talk about the mood elevator. I think you got to climb the mood elevator and get all the way up. This the state of gratitude, because I think you're at your best when you're grateful. When I'm grateful, I My mind's open. I make my best, best decisions when I'm angry and resentful, or, you know, down at the bottom of the mood elevator. I don't perform at that high level, so I always try to at least get into a curious and interested state of mind, you know, but hopefully work my way up to the state of gratitude.

Dr. Michael Gervais 38:35 

Yeah. So whatever you do to put yourself into the state of gratitude, I would assume you know how to do that, and if you don't know how to do it, then you and I would open up ways that you've done it well you haven't done it well, find the commonalities and the themes, and it essentially comes to down to how you are seeing the challenge ahead of you. How are you perceiving your skills, and ultimately what you say to yourself. So what you say to yourself impacts your emotions and you and your thoughts and emotions impact your physicality. So there's this kind of the Trinity, if you will, about thoughts, emotions and behaviors. And when you combine those two, that essentially is your performance. And there's a process to be prepared, and there's a process to be ready, and there's a process when you get those two dialed in, allow you to perform to your upper limits of your capability. So preparation, readiness, performance,

David Novak 39:42 

we'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Dr Michael Gervais in just a moment. You know, the ability to regulate your own mental state is a huge advantage for leaders, and that's a key part of how American Express. Chairman and CEO Steve squarey leads,

Steve Squeri 39:57 

my father would always tell us you can never get too high. High, and you can never get too low, no matter how things shake out. And I watched him navigate life, and I think as you lead a company like this, you're always going to have highs and you're always going to have lows. And one of the things that I think I've learned since I became the CEO is that how the CEO sets the tone is how the tone goes for the entire company. And so I think it's really important that you know when things are going well, you stay even keel, but when things aren't going so well, you also stay even keel, but by staying even keel and not getting too emotional over things, it allows you to focus and to problem solve, right? You don't want to be assessing blame. You want to problem solve, and I think that's been important. So for me, my leadership style has always been one that is balanced. Never get too high, never get too low, and just continue to focus.

David Novak 40:52 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Steve, Episode 188 here on how leaders lead. You know you you're also a big believer in optimism. And you worked with the Seattle Seahawks for, I think, nine seasons or so. And you worked alongside Pete Carroll. I mean, he's probably the Tigger of the athletic world, you know. Why are you such a big believer that optimism, something that you know, leaders in every field, has got to really have to perform

Dr. Michael Gervais 41:21 

well, I think, okay, cool question. I'll answer it three ways. One is personal. It's not grounded in science, and it's just personal. I like being around optimists. I like the energy that comes from people that say, Yeah, but what if we could do it this way? Can you see how this could go be amazing, like, I love that exciting energy about exploring possibilities. So that's one. It's personal to me. Then, when I look at the science, there's really good science that supports optimism on two fronts, one for flourishing, for living a good life. Optimist report. You know better across many variables when we study optimism. And then on the performance side, there was a you probably remember this. There was an early research on optimism in sales, and it was from MetLife. Martin Seligman did this. This research from the University of Pennsylvania. I think it was 78 it was 8080, in the early 80s. Like I don't have the exact date in my head, but he measured, he measured optimism mapped up against sales performance. So he had a hunch, and MetLife went with him, and he thought that Optimus would outperform pessimists. And what he did is he took a group of people that did not make the paper screening so they would not have gotten into the hiring process. They didn't have the stuff on on on the books, if you will, to get to the next stage of interview, but they scored exceptionally high on optimism, he squirreled away a small little cohort of super optimists and optimists, and watched how they performed over a handful of years, and they radically outperformed non optimists, people that are more neutral and pessimists. And so the lesson in that research is that Optimus also supports high performance. And then the third variable is more experience. Personal experience is that I haven't met a person a world best that is not fundamentally optimistic. When you add all three of those up, I'm singing from as tall as trees that I can like a develop this skill of optimism. And so notice that I'm saying it's a skill. It's not something that you're necessarily just born with. We will always leave room for genetic coding for everything, but there are ways that you can develop optimism as a skill. And most people reflexively hear me say that, and they go, when are we going to talk about holding hands and skipping through, you know, the rose pads and like, you know, everything's always good and that toxic positivity. BS, it's not that. It's not that at all. Optimism when done right is the is ground zero for mental toughness. Optimism done right when it's not naive, when it's not toxic, when it's grounded in reality and with a refusal to just give in to all the the difficult information to say, You know what? It's just not going to work out. When there's a refusal to think that way, when there's a discipline to stay the course, even when it's hard, that's what where optimism and and mental toughness coalesce.

David Novak 44:56 

I love that because, you know, optimism, a lot of times people. To see the world with rose colored glasses, and people walk around going, Oh, yippee. Yippee. We can do this, but it's grounded. Is the key, grounded in the reality, which is the key to really making making that work. And you know, one thing that is, is a reality that, yeah, you have to deal with. If you're running Microsoft, or you're the Seattle Seahawks who win a Super Bowl one year. Or, you know, you're the Chiefs who've been winning everything. You got to overlap your performance. You just can't have one good year. You got to get better and better every year, or keep it, keep that performance going. What's your thought on? On coaching people to to to jump over the bar again and again and again, just keep raising performance.

Dr. Michael Gervais 45:45 

Oh, I mean, that's the most exciting part, you know, is like, there's more to unlock. And that's, that's one of the differences between mastery and high performance and low low performance, if you will. Is like, this excitement for what could be. And if you if you don't take care of your recovery. You know, staying true to the standard is exhausting. It's an it's a very exacting way of of approaching life. Is this uncommon, consistent? You know, approach to getting better it, it takes a toll on everybody. So there's a couple things toward it. One is one of, you know, first and foremost, if you're like and think about how exciting things could be if when you keep going and growing. Secondly is, I need people around me that challenge me. I need people around me that see me and love me and support me and and want to be, you know, able to want to carry my water when I want to put the JUGS down like I need a community, you know, that that pulls me forward too, and so I can do the same for them. So there's a bit of a community, there's a bit of personal excitement and and also say nobody has to, nobody has to be on that path like you and I might be weird ones you know, like whatever condition that you have in your life, you play a significant role in it. And so I squarely sit on the power of people having agency, to be able to work within themselves even when they're in the most dire, dramatically painful, full of suffering, exhausting, exacting, traumatic, external experiences. And so I'm still going to shine light, just like some of my heroes in in the world of psychology and in my personal life, like Dr, Edith eager, dr, Victor Frankel, you know people in my life that have suffered greatly, and they keep saying over and over and over Again, hey, listen, you play a part in this.

David Novak 48:04 

You play for Michael. You know, when you think about your your own performance, when do you perform best? What state are you in?

Dr. Michael Gervais 48:14 

My ideal performance mindset is like, if, when I'm going on stage or I'm working, you know, one to many in a in a boardroom, or one to one, there's an openness, and there's a commitment, openness to to explore the ideas. But I, I am at my absolute best when I am deeply connected to the task at hand. And I'm, I'm a bit of a competitor in that way, like I'm competing within myself to be right here with you. There's an openness, there's a competitive drive that's working inside. And then once those two things and I'm super positive, like I do like that nature, when those elements are tuning well together, then it feels like I've, I've slipped into that sixth gear, and I'm no longer trying. It's just me perfectly being with with the unfolding moment. Yeah,

David Novak 49:12 

I've heard you also say that you have to be vulnerable. You have to put yourself in a vulnerable position to be great.

Dr. Michael Gervais 49:18 

Well, let's look at like, let's look at the Seattle Seahawks for let's go back to American football for a minute. Is that we see them on Sunday and they do extraordinary things on the field. I mean, it is. You've got to be a world class athlete to sit on the bench of an American football team. So there's nobody on the team that is not extraordinary. Now, to be a starter, oh my god, it's a whole different thing. It's amazing. Now, the thing that I think most of us miss, and I certainly would have before I was part of these environments, is that on Monday and Wednesday, Tuesday's a day off for. For the athletes on Monday, on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, they're on the field and in the meeting rooms and doing film study, exposing what they don't know, exposing where they are, quote, unquote weak in their performance skill set. They are putting themselves on the edge of their capabilities, not knowing if this is going to be an amazing breakthrough kind of thing, or they're going to fall into 1000 pieces. And they're doing it in front of people that want their job. They're doing it in front of their coaches that determine if they play, or how much they play, or if they stay on the team. They're doing it publicly in front of them, and they're doing it publicly in front of the rest of the world on Sunday. So that we, we like to talk about like risk taking, but risk taking requires making something vulnerable that is of value to you. And so when you make something that is vulnerable, and vow I'm sorry when you make something that's valuable vulnerable, you're in a state of trust. I trust that even if I drop the ball, I'm going to be okay. It doesn't mean I'm not going to get cut it doesn't mean that I'm not going to get booed. It doesn't mean that I might not have people pissed off at me, but I trust I'll figure that out too. So there's a deep resolve in like I will figure this out no matter how it goes. Me resting on people that have high trust, and that's what allows us to be vulnerable with ourselves and with other people.

David Novak 51:34 

I love that in all I think I could talk to you for hours about this stuff. It's fantastic, but it's been so much fun, and I want to have some more with you and do my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this?

Dr. Michael Gervais 51:46 

David, thank you for creating the space. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Let's

David Novak 51:49 

do it all right. What three words best describe you?

Dr. Michael Gervais 51:53 

Oh, that's cool. Honest, earnest, competitive. If you

David Novak 51:57 

could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? I have no interest in that. Your biggest your biggest pet

Dr. Michael Gervais 52:06 

peeve when the toilet seat is left up and people flush. Who would play you in a movie? I get told probably three times a day that I look like Tom

David Novak 52:15 

Cruise. If you could win a gold medal in any sport, what would it be surfing? What's the one thing you appreciate the most about the surf culture, the

Dr. Michael Gervais 52:24 

freedom to explore and the commitment to progression of self and progression of skill?

David Novak 52:31 

What's something you've changed your mind about recently, that

Dr. Michael Gervais 52:35 

high performance begins where wellness ends? I thought, and we thought that that was a true statement. It's it was dramatically wrong. So the same psychological skills that support high performance are the same exact psychological skills for well

David Novak 52:51 

being. What's the one thing you do just for you, meditation, besides your family, what's your most prized possession? Oh, you

Dr. Michael Gervais 52:58 

know what it would be? Felix Baumgartner, there's two things that just pop, and I'll just share both of one is my my son. When he was in grade school, there was a bunch of Zen monks that that showed up at a school for a week long and did a sand mandala. And so they were hunched over for a week making this beautiful mandala that was really large in size. And at the end, they gathered all the students around. They explained what they were doing, the deep focus and concentration that was required, the teaming. And then they said that we're going to wipe it clean, and because all things are impermanent. And so my son was blown away. He loved it, and he grabbed a they were giving away these little beads, wrist beads, and so he grabbed one for me and gave it to me, and probably cost, you know, $3 and so that's one of my prize possessions, if you will. And the other is, I was a teammate for the Red Bull Stratos project, where Felix Baumgartner jumped from 130,000 feet, and he commissioned 10 watches just for the teammates. And it's, it just, it's, it matters to me.

David Novak 54:10 

You know, if I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Classic Rock? What's something about you? Few people would know.

Dr. Michael Gervais 54:15 

I think it was like my, my, I had great test anxiety. I know I know I shared general anxiety, but I didn't test well, and I was afraid to kind of put myself out there in testing. So that was something I don't think I've ever said that out loud before.

David Novak 54:29 

All right, what's one of your daily rituals, something that you'd never miss, besides meditation,

Dr. Michael Gervais 54:34 

like a moment a good morning moment with my family? All right,

David Novak 54:38 

fantastic. We're out of the lightning round. And I just got a couple more questions, and we'll wrap this up. You know, you know, you coach professional athletes, you coach business leaders. Are they the same, or is it different? I mean, do you have to shift gears when you when you coach businesses or athletes? And I. Do you think about that?

Dr. Michael Gervais 55:00 

They are actually just like you and me. They they have a they're no different than the rest of the world. They just have a different commitment, you know? And they found something that they can be good at, and so but between athletes and executives, the where I spend my time is on the mind, and the mind is portable across geographic region and discipline, and so many of the same tenants show up across the globe for people that are really trying to do something special in their lives.

David Novak 55:38 

As a business leader, what kind of process do you think you need to build into your life? You know, because you think about athletes. You know, I play golf, process is critical. You know, process and discipline around what really matters is important, and in sports and in business. But when, when you think business specifically, do you have any thoughts on on how you should develop process that will help you perform

Dr. Michael Gervais 56:07 

one of the things I think that is, I think big sport is about 10 to 15 years ahead of big business. And in big sport, elite sport, what we do is we put mental skills training in the rhythm of the day. Okay, so our, our asset is the athlete is the human. That's our product, if you will. It's, it's human performance in sport. And so the, the only thing we're pouring into is to help others be their very best. So the entire day is structured around people being their very best, so they can go do the thing that they need to do in an exceptional way. You know, on game day and in business, there's very little of that. So the most we have products and services in business, but there's very little attention to helping individuals be great inside the rhythm of business. Psychology in the rhythm of business is what, I think is the new frontier for for companies,

David Novak 57:10 

you know, is, is there anything Michael, that that you've learned as you've worked through the what it takes to be a great leader and in any field that you try to take home and use with your own family. I mean, how do you think about that? I mean, it's like, how do you transfer that learning that you've gained and bring it home so that you're an effective leader as the as the father and husband?

Dr. Michael Gervais 57:36 

Yeah, cool question, you know. And I think it's being principle based, you know? So I go back to that almost, where we started about lining up my thoughts, words and actions in harmony with my first principles, with my values in life. If I can do that with a consistent basis, then I'm in, I'm in a good place, whatever, whenever, whatever room that I'm in,

David Novak 58:01 

and what do you see going forward as your unfinished business? Because you definitely have purpose for your life.

Dr. Michael Gervais 58:07 

The vision I hold is a world where people flourish, you know, and so unfinished business is helping decode and and activate the best practices of psychological skills, building that I've learned from best in the world in sport into, you know, people that would never have access to those those locker rooms and those special rooms. So that's the unfinished business is. Is like, how do I pull from my head and heart, from the locker rooms and the amazing athletes that have taught me how they how they work. How do I democratize that to to the rest of the world? That's what I'm that's the grand ambition for me.

David Novak 58:48 

Last question, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Everything you need is already inside you. Fantastic. Well, Michael, you know, I really appreciate what you're doing. You know how you're making the world a better place. And thank you. I hope you can scale this learning.

It's easy to assume that success is just a matter of talent, hard work and strategy, but talking to Dr Gervais, it's clear that your mindset matters just as much. Because look, no matter how smart or talented you are, if you can't steady your mind when the pressure's on or when conflict hits, then your leadership is going to falter right when people need you the most. That's why the best leaders train their minds just like any other skill, when you do that, you gain confidence, you stay composed under pressure, you become a better teammate and a stronger coach. So here's an idea to try this week. Think about a big challenge you're up against, then use Dr Gervais strategy to build your confidence around it. Ask yourself. And how am I uniquely equipped to face this? What strengths and perspectives do I bring to the table when you train your mind to think this way, you'll be ready to meet any moment. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders train their minds. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Peter cunio, the former CEO and vice chairman of Marvel Entertainment, so be sure you subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be. You.